Reply turned post, human incubator take two

The Mommy Wars Frontliner had another comment at Shakesville to answer my first reply about how a court order to require Samantha Burton to be admitted to a hospital for court ordered bed rest for threatened pre term labor was misguided. Please go back and read the link above and the original post at Shakesville if you need more context.


“Her health was NOT in danger…”

Obviously, it was. That, or her fetus’ health was in danger, so if she had any stake in saving it, she had good reason to follow the doctor’s advice. You don’t get prescribed immediate, unequivocal bed-rest without your health (or in this case, the health of your fetus) being seriously in danger. She was on the brink of miscarriage, for god’s sake. Are you suggesting that if they’d just let her out of the hospital, she -wouldn’t- have miscarried? Because that’s ridiculous.

“8 to 10% of all pregnancies in the United States end with premature delivery. Do you think all of these women are required to be on bed rest in the hospital? Bed rest is not proven to prevent pregnancy loss, and was not practical nor desirable for this woman.”

I don’t know how many of those women are required to be on bed rest. I don’t think that’s relevant. The doctor didn’t prescribe her bed rest just because she had a false alarm of premature labor. At any rate, of course bed rest isn’t *proven* to prevent pregnancy loss. -Nothing- is proven to prevent pregnancy loss. Nothing is proven to prevent anything. But if you’re seriously ill, I think bed rest is better than the alternative.

“Just how many mothers are you trying to say care “shit-all” about their babies? 1 in 6 mothers?”

If that’s how many mothers chain-smoke around their kids and during pregnancy, then yeah, I guess so. And just so we’re clear, fathers are not exempt here. If you’re a parent, and you’re willfully exposing your child to dangerous chemicals to an extent that it could fuck up the child’s health for life, you’re a shitty parent, end of story.

“Exercise has also been associated with pregnancy loss. I wonder what you think of women who are selfish enough to take epilepsy meds.”

I believe the former is a myth. As for women with epilepsy, I don’t know why you bring them up. They didn’t choose to have epilepsy, and it says right in the article you linked that not taking medication could deprive the fetus of oxygen during a seizure. There’s a world of difference between a woman who can’t help having epilepsy and a woman who chooses to smoke during her pregnancy.

“Don’t you dare say she didn’t care shit-all about her kids.”

Besides the fact that your anecdote says nothing to the defense of Burton, I see nothing in it to counter my assessment. Caring about people doesn’t prevent us from making mistakes – but it does prevent us from willfully harming them.

@TiPerihelion, you obviously don’t know much about pregnancy or birth, so why are you still offering such strong opinions?

First of all, a miscarriage is a loss before 20 weeks. She was past 20 weeks. You don’t even know what health condition you’re even talking about. “She was on the brink of miscarriage, for god’s sake!”

I have had a miscarriage. 30% or more of pregnancies end in miscarriage. My health was never in danger. Miscarriage does not put a woman’s health in danger unless there is a complication. Miscarriage is much, much safer for a mother than carrying a pregnancy to term. A mother’s health is more in danger from carrying a pregnancy than having a miscarriage or abortion.

The effectiveness of bedrest for PRETERM labor, what she had a “false alarm” of, is exactly relevant because that is what was recommended to this woman. It is not recommended as effective, even by the Cochrane database. I am sure you have never heard of the Cochrane database, but they are the collectors and disseminators of evidence based medicine.

So, how about that fetus again? Now you are admitting it was the fetus, not the woman, who was in danger. Read the original post, read your first comment, and tell me what you think about the judge bringing up the fetus now. Think about the slippery slope here.

As for smoking, fathers and mothers being shitty parents, congrats. You have taken one, small issue, and made it somehow the gold standard for good parenting. Sexual abuse? Neglect? Hey, as long as you’re not a smoker, TiPerihelion thinks you’re a great parent. Oh, wait, no, that’s not how it works? Then stop passing judgments on the parenting skills of people who you have never met. And, that has NOTHING to do with mandating three months of hospital-admitted bed rest to a working, low income woman with two living children and no child care. And smoking during pregnancy? TiPerihelion probably knows a foolproof way for a pregnant woman to stop smoking without using medication during pregnancy, too. I’m waiting breathlessly for you to publish that paper in an addiction journal.

Until you actually know more about the medical conditions you are discussing, no one cares whether you think exercise leads to higher miscarriage rates. It does. It’s called evidence. No one cares what you think when you read one line of an article on epileptic drugs and what they do during pregnancy. Did you read the line that said 90% of the children of these mothers will be born healthy? What about those other 10%? That’s due to the drug effects.

Your attitude and judgment makes mothers afraid to take necessary medications during pregnancy. Your attitude makes women who are smokers during pregnancy hide that from their practitioners instead of getting the help they need to stop. Your attitude defends stripping pregnant women of their rights and identities, and treats them like human incubators.


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29 responses to “Reply turned post, human incubator take two

  1. The seizure med example from your previous comment was a great comparison. Wow, I didn’t know that women who are “willfully exposing [their] child to dangerous chemicals” during pregnancy are “shitty parent[s], end of story.” How kind.

    • MomTFH

      Yup! And imagine if you have one of those stigmatized conditions, such as mental illness? I bet he doesn’t even think people with mental illness should keep their kids, especially if they choose to use medication. What about the fatties? Giving their kids McDonald’s? Or women drinking Diet Coke when they’re pregnant. With real caffeine!!!

      Hey, Tiperihelion, I ate sushi when I was pregnant once! Call protective services!

      • There was another story on antidepressants recently, I think on it interfering with breastfeeding early on. I haven’t read the study yet, but couldn’t stop thinking, “You know what else I bet interferes with breastfeeding? Not having the will to do anything because you’re not taking your necessary meds.”

        • MomTFH

          I know. It’s such a difficult issue. Because mental illness is stigmatized, and medication during pregnancy and breastfeeding are stigmatized, and formula feeding is stigmatized, and mental health meds in general are stigmatized….argh. How is someone supposed to make a health decision with all that pressure? Especially if you’re depressed!

          • Exactly. It seemed like there was no possible way for a woman to win all around, choice-wise.

          • This is a good discussion.

            People need to consider that there is always a risk and benefit to drug exposure in pregnancy.

            While anticonvulsants do have some teratogenic effect (in the first trimester), they are still rarely associated with birth defects. Uncontrolled seizures, on the other hand, clearly have a harmful effect on a pregnancy, including potential fetal loss in situations of status epilepticus. Patients with active seizure disorders are typically counseled to stay on their meds in pregnancy, and even to increase their doses to control seizures, which can be necessary due to the increased volume of distribution in pregnancy.

            You are right that bedrest has not been proven to decrease rates of preterm labor. The situation we are discussing is truly tragic, and it is ridiculous that any court would mandate a woman to proscribed bedrest for protection of the fetus. Bedrest is something that makes sense, but evidence to date has not supported it as a recommendation. Furthermore, it probably increases the rate of venous thromboembolism. It does have an effect on blood pressure, particularly in women with pre-eclampsia and uncontrolled chronic hypertension, though it is unclear if exercise induced changes in blood pressure in these patients is the same issue as spontaneous increases in baseline blood pressure.

  2. Karen

    The appeal to god really gets to me.”She was on the brink of miscarriage, for god’s sake.”


    I can sympathise with judges who would order alkies and crackheads to go along with a doctor’s opinion, but smokers?

    And who’s to say that her body wasn’t rejecting a fetus with and undiagnosed defection? Like that never happens.

    This person is intentionally overlooking the distress that a smoker would go through after being forcibly deprived of their tobacco, and the stress that forced hospital incarceration would cause. Doctors tell women on psych. meds, with all their chemicals, to keep taking them throughout the pregnancy and nursing period, so this blogger gets a big fail from me. So what if there are a few more miscarriages? That is information for the family to weigh in their personal health decisions. And no, I don’t smoke. I just see this as another crack in the dam of human rights legislation.

  3. squeyres

    Hey Karen? “Alkies” and “crackheads” have rights too, and your sentiments about them work in the same way as disparaging comments about smokers do – they so stigmatize a health issue that those suffering from it (pregnant or not) often go without the care they need simply because they can’t fight the contempt. Not to mention the fear that their child, maybe even their freedom will be taken from them just because they admit to being ill.

    • Karen

      Whatever. People who pickle their babies in the womb have no “rights” to those kids, nor should they. All they have is the right to get hep quitting, and if that fails the state is perfectly justified in placing the pregnant woman in protective custody outside of the penal system.

      Abusing substances to the point where you retard a perfectly good fetus is indefensible, and if a mother chooses not to abort, then the state has a valid reason to step in. Please keep in mind that I am writing about substances which are known teratogens with a high mutative properties, not the occasional glass of wine, cigarettes, psych. meds, etc.

      Why don’t you do a poll of living adults with FAS and see if they think that their mother should have been removed from her “soaked” environment. What about their rights?

      • MomTFH

        I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. It feels good from a distance to viciously condemn people who have addictions during pregnancy, but punitive programs that try to punish them and take away their parental rights do not work to decrease addiction. Instead, they decrease prenatal visits by the very people who need them the most. There’s already plenty of stigma out there. Throwing some more on them isn’t going to suddenly work.

        It IS defensible to abuse substances during pregnancy. Drug and alcohol abuse are addictions, and most pregnancies, especially among this population, are unplanned. What these addicts need is empathy and rehab, not threats and anger.

        I am glad you at least said “outside the penal system.” But, what are you talking about, then? The foster care system? Right now there aren’t enough foster parents for the kids that are already in foster care. Most social workers and experts want to do whatever they can to keep a family together. You have to think past the knee jerk anger and try to do what’s best in the long term for these children. A life of foster care is rarely free from neglect, drug abuse issues and pain. People aren’t beating down the door to adopt drug and/or alcohol exposed children. A fetus is a powerful motivator. These women do have rights and may still be the best hope for their future children.

        I was actually at a presentation on addiction in pregnancy while you were commenting on the thread. This was about nicotine in particular, but the physician who specializes in these addictions emphasized that some of the most useful tools are normalizing their feelings (saying many people have problems quitting and are afraid, not just them), empathizing and reflecting their fears, acknowledging that there are some advantages to their behavior (it keeps away withdrawal symptoms, for example, or relieves stress). Then, with their permission, you can start to get them to volunteer reasons to quit, acknowledge the disadvantages (the cost, the fear of harming their fetus, etc.) Badgering and threatening are abysmally not successful.

        I recommend the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. They have a great site with wonderful information about evidence and substance use during pregnancy.

        Also, I am going to have to mention the slippery slope. Sure, no one wants to say it’s great to drink alcohol, smoke, or do drugs during pregnancy. But, alcohol is legal, and so are cigarettes. I heard a doctor say he ordered one of his patients to stop practicing softball during her entire pregnancy, and followed her to see if she was compliant. (?!) He busted her at the batting cages, and dropped her from his practice immediately, with photos. Yes, a softball from a pitching machine to the belly isn’t a great idea. But, why do the woman’s rights disappear simply due to a health condition? What about the pregnant woman who won’t stop running every day? Or who eats sushi and runny cheese? What if she continues to work in that pediatrics clinic or school with those sick kids and their CMV? That’s a known teratogen.

        What if she’s a bartender and gets second hand smoke? What if she’s a flight instructor and her ob/gyn thinks the pressure might cause her to miscarry?

        I can keep going.

        I have been to a detox center and talked to the physician there. It’s not easy to get people off of alcohol or addictive drugs. You can’t keep them locked up forever. And, simply being pregnant doesn’t change that.

      • squeyres


        My mother was addicted to heroin and crack cocaine when she was pregnant with me, and I am a functional adult, not a pickle, but thanks for that!
        This direct experience, not abstract contempt or ignorant prejudice, is what has formed my opinions.

  4. Karen

    Ok. I ran this by my 13 year old daughter for kicks. Her op. jibes with mine.

    Women who are daily users of illegal drugs and alcohol should be forced to detox.

    Our take on it is that anyone who is already impaired will have less ability to deal with children with problems.

    We also agree that we don’t need any more damaged children.

    Foster care may be broke but for those kids who would otherwise be eating dog food for din-din it’s a plus.

    Now we’re a homebirthing family and view forced interventions (including VBAC bans and bedrest for smoking Marlboros) as human rights violations, and will continue to demand comprehensive consent forms, but we draw the line at calling EXCESSIVE drinking and drugging during pregnancy a “right”.

    • MomTFH

      What is excessive? How does drug use and / or alcohol use during pregnancy = eating dog food as a child? I am not against removing severely neglected children from their homes, but punitive attitudes drive addicted patients AWAY from care.

      Since when does your thirteen year old daughter get to decide public health policy?

      We don’t “need” more damaged kids. But, do you want these women showing up in labor, or showing up when they find out they’re pregnant? Do you want them to think someone cares about them and believes they can detox? Or, do you want them to think they’re going to be told they’re obviously going to damage their child (which is not even close to the truth. It happens, but not in all or even most cases. Read the medical information, not 13 year old’s opinions, at the link I provided) and they are going to be horrible parents their whole lives, probably neglecting them and feeding them dog food, so we’re going to remove their parental rights?

      Just last night, I actually listened to a physician who was an ob/gyn in West Virginia talk about methamphetamine using pregnant women and how hard it was to clean them up, even with lots of support. But, that’s the entire community up there. He was compassionate, not condemning. He has delivered the small for gestational age babies. He’s been there. He knows how many people in these poor communities use meth, alcohol, prescription opiates, methadone or benzodiazepene.

      I am sure you and your thirteen year old daughter want to be able to pick and choose which families have human rights that are violated by forced interventions and which ones don’t, but I’ll settle for people with real public health experience and interest in outcomes and ethics, not knee jerk punishment.

  5. Karen

    And I’d also like to add that I have viciously condemned a young pregnant woman (years ago) for drinking and drugging during pregnancy to her face. I talked birth defects, parenting, and abortion. Her baby was swimming in toxic soup for months so this girl could keep up with her druggie boyfriend, who left her after it became obvious that the child had Major developmental problems. He denied being the child’s father until DNA proved otherwise. So sad and preventable. I’m only sorry that I didn’t have a go at the father about substance abuse and birth defects.

    • MomTFH

      Why, so you could feel more superior? Tell someone you understand how afraid they are and that there are experts who can help them, if you want to help. How did that vicious condemnation work? Sounds like the she still used, and stayed with the druggie until after the baby was born.

      How would a “go at” her druggie boyfriend, who didn’t even straighten up or admit he was a father with a pregnant girlfriend, have helped? Do you think they don’t know people think druggies are scum, and that is all that was missing from their recovery?

      • squeyres

        Thank you MomTFH.

        Like I said earlier, my family has many issues with substance abuse and addiction. In my opinion, these issues in and of themselves are manageable. Incredibly difficult to manage, yes, but manageable.

        The hate is not.

        • MomTFH

          Yes, yours and about 10% of families deal with some form of addiction, and that doesn’t include cigarettes, caffeine, and other more more amorphous addictions like the internet and porn.

  6. What do you know about drug detox while pregnant? What do you know about the process of detox in general? How would you recommend “forcing” a woman with, say, three older children to detox from opiates while six months pregnant?

    Was your vicious condemnation effective? Did the young pregnant woman stop using?

    Just curious.

  7. MomTFH,

    I have a question about the miscarriage-exercise study. Since you didn’t include a link, I’m not sure which study(ies?) you’re referring to. I remember reading about some study which showed that there was a link between early pregnancy exercise and subsequent miscarriage; but a critique of the study pointed out that it was retrospective, with the women filling out a questionnaire perhaps 6-12 months after the miscarriage about their levels of exercise. So, they could be misremembering. It’s also possible that the women were biased, knowing that they were filling out a questionnaire about miscarriage and exercise, and thinking that perhaps their exercise was more vigorous than it was and caused the miscarriage (blaming themselves), and women who did not have a miscarriage thought that their level of exercise was not as vigorous.

    Does this sound like the study to which you were referring? Or were you referring to another study, perhaps prospective, in which women wrote down their exercise habits as they went along?

    • MomTFH

      It has been researched in more than one study.

      I looked up a recent systematic review of the research on exercise an pregnancy:

      Schlüssel M, Souza E, Reichenheim M, Kac G. Physical activity during pregnancy and maternal-child health outcomes: a systematic literature review. Cadernos De Saúde Pública / Ministério Da Saúde, Fundação Oswaldo Cruz, Escola Nacional De Saúde Pública [serial online]. 2008;24 Suppl 4:s531-s544. Available from: MEDLINE, Ipswich, MA. Accessed February 4, 2010

      Here is the abstract:

      A systematic literature review was conducted to investigate the effects of physical activity during pregnancy on selected maternal-child health outcomes. The search included articles published from 1980 to 2005 in the MEDLINE and LILACS databases using key words such as physical activity, physical exercise, pregnancy, and gestation. The methodological quality of 37 selected articles was evaluated. It appears to be a consensus that some light-to-moderate physical activity is not a risk factor and may even be considered a protective factor for some outcomes. However, some studies found an association between specific activities (e.g., climbing stairs or standing for long periods) and inadequate birth weight, prematurity, and miscarriage. Few studies found an association between physical activity and maternal weight gain, mode of delivery, or fetal development. Further research is needed to fill these gaps and provide guidelines on the intensity, duration, and frequency of physical activity during pregnancy.
      I would have to look at the individual studies, and what levels of what kinds of activities were associated to miscarriage. But, enough that it made it into the abstract of the review.

      I am not saying that it is bad for someone who is pregnant to maintain a low to moderate level of exercise. I did yoga, swam, rode bikes and walked during both of my pregnancies. I even went kayaking when I was pregnant with Z.

      I am saying it is not easy to police everything a woman does during pregnancy. 37 selected articles means there’s a good amount of concern about the effect of exercise on pregnancy. There’s a good amount of concern about a lot of things during pregnancy, and we need to be careful about who we’re calling bad parents, and who we’re putting on mandatory bed rest.

      (Anecdotes coming, not evidence) My cousin Susan is a physician who was only 30 and on her 5th round of IVF. She was fighting with her RE to let her to keep running 3 miles a day. Her BMI was 19 (on the low side of normal). She stopped, finally, and the last IVF stuck. My other cousin Susan made it through two pregnancies without quitting smoking with no problems (the kids were full term but on the early side, and both were over 7 pounds). I am the one who had a miscarriage, and I quit smoking when I found out I was pregnant with my first son.

      It’s not black and white. And, it’s not definitive enough for people to talk about it with the certainty and anger that they do. People treat pregnant women like human incubators, and it is a lot more complicated than that.

      • Ok, thanks! I hadn’t looked at research in this area, and remembered the study I previously mentioned, but also that it was generally recommended that women exercise during pregnancy (or at least, not give up most forms of exercise, if they were already accustomed to it), and wondered how well it was actually researched. I could have looked at it myself, but figured if you’d already done it, why reinvent the wheel? 🙂

        • MomTFH

          No problem at all. I needed to check the strength of the association, myself. I usually try to do a good job substantiating my major points in my blog posts, but not as much in the comments, and not as much in the minor points. However, substantiation is ALWAYS a good thing, and I never have a problem with someone asking me where I got my claims from.

          Evidence is tricky. I don’t want to increase the magnifying glass on people of reproductive age, especially women, especially women with fertility or pregnancy problems. Appropriate exercise is good, and is a health decision that should be discussed with a health care provider.

      • While exercise in pregnancy is generally a good thing, a BMI of 19 is another matter. With that low of a BMI, a woman will typically have Functional Hypothalamic Ammenoreah, a state of low FSH and subsequent Estrogen production. Patients with FHA do not ovulate and have little or no menses. The REI was correct to recommend that the woman stop excercising so much, if she wanted the IVF to be successful.

        The teliologic origin of FHA is thought to be a selective advantage to _not_ reproducing when there is very little food around to eat. Basically, a trigger not to reproduce when there is a starvation diet. This gets artificially created when women excercise to the point of near starvation, or at least to the point where their body thinks that is what is going on. In some cases this can be a lifestyle choice, but in many cases it is the result of anorexia nervosa.

        • As always, so happy to see you here.

          Yes, I hate to diagnose her, since I am a student and most definitely not her physician, but she is most likely an exercise bulimic or anorexic or both. The reason I know her BMI is because she discussed her BMI, activity levels, and weight a lot, which can be indicative of an eating disorder. I assumed her fertility problems were related to FHA. I am not sure of she made the connection consciously or not, but she did stop running before her last IVF round.

          I had lunch recently with my third cousin Susan who also is having similar fertility issues, although she is much earlier in the RE process. When I asked her for more details about her fertility issues, she said she thought it was likely she hadn’t been ovulating because her weight was too low, but she had recently gained 15 pounds, so she was “feeling better”. I cannot guess her BMI and she didn’t volunteer it, but I would think she was still not much about 19, if that.

          I told her about my cousin Susan the physician, and told her exactly what I told the physician. I tried to be gentle (with both) and not insinuate that I thought they have eating disorders, but I said “Please, give yourself permission to eat whatever you want, and try not to worry about gaining weight right now. A little extra fat is good for getting pregnant, and you have the rest of your life to exercise and watch your weight.” I mentioned to my friend that I thought the physician might be a little “compulsive” about exercising, and she admitted “I may be a little compulsive about it, too.”

          Sigh. It’s a delicate topic, especially on a post discussing excessive scrutiny of women of reproductive age. It’s the scrutiny women are under that contributes to eating disorders. And, like the addiction issues discussed above, angry or blaming confrontation probably won’t help. And, the constant chatter about the size of pregnant women doesn’t help.

          Then, of course, there’s the flip side of the issue, and the fertility (and hormonal and obese) problems that can be associated with polycystic ovarian syndrome. It seems like any deviation from the “normal” body type can be scrutinized for being related to fertility problems.

  8. @Nicholas Fogelson, in regards to anti-seizure meds:

    Thanks for two thoughtful replies on this post!

    Medication during pregnancy that is not to improve the health of the fetus, but the health of the mother, and may have risks for the fetus, is a complicated topic (obviously!) I am troubled by the fetus-trumps-all language I hear often, and think that it doesn’t help women make appropriate medical decisions.

    • Yep. That said, sometimes medication _is_ to improve the health of the fetus. Replacement of maternal thyroid hormone is important in hypothyroid mothers to prevent fetal thyroid deficiency and subsequent poor CNS development. Control of maternal blood sugars with oral medications and insulin have effects on fetal growth and placental development. Control of maternal hypertension affects fetal growth, risk of abruption, and risk of intrauterine fetal death. Mothers can take antiarrythmic drugs to control fetal tachycardias that untreated can lead to fetal heart failure. Lots of examples….

      • MomTFH

        Good point. I worry that a blanket bias against medication during pregnancy (and breastfeeding, for that matter) may end up hurting the mother and the fetus / baby.

        • MomTFH

          And, in line with your example, I don’t think that maternal and fetal rights / best interests are necessarily in conflict.

  9. Karen

    I apologize for any distress I have caused with my comments. After looking into this issue, and finding this article from the UK, I have changed my mind. I will discuss this with mini-me in order to properly shape future public opinion on policy. Sorry, I was very wrong.

    Mother ‘not clever enough to raise child’ has baby snatched by social workers after running away to Ireland to give birth
    Last updated at 1:13 PM on 22nd January 2010

    Comments (961)
    Add to My Stories

    A couple who fled to Ireland after social workers threatened to remove their baby at birth have had the newborn snatched after all.

    Kerry Robertson, 17, who has mild learning difficulties, and Mark McDougall, 25, went on the run after British social services said she was not clever enough to raise a child.

    But just four days after Ben was born, Irish social workers marched into the maternity ward and forced them to hand him over.

    They were told they were acting at the behest of their British counterparts.
    The couple, from Fife, Scotland, have been on the run for three months.
    In September, their wedding was halted just 48 hours before the service when social workers claimed Miss Robertson was not bright enough to understand the marriage declaration.
    Then in November they were told that her ‘disability’ meant their baby would be taken away at birth.
    With Miss Robertson 29 weeks pregnant, they fled their house in the middle of the night and travelled to Ireland.
    Ben was born healthy and weighing 7lb 3oz last Friday.
    Last night Miss Robertson said: ‘When the Irish social workers said I had to give the baby to them, I felt sick.
    ‘I didn’t want to hand him over and I started crying because I couldn’t believe what they were saying. I thought I had misunderstood.
    ‘I had just been breastfeeding him.
    Just before they took him away, I told Ben I loved him and gave him a kiss.’
    Mr McDougall added: ‘Kerry let out a dreadful cry when she realised what was happening – it was terrible. She is just in pieces.
    ‘We believed that the Irish had more traditional values than social workers in the UK. We found a two-bedroom cottage in a beautiful village in Waterford overlooking the sea.

    Read more:

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